Save or Cry: LL save matrix design

I made a few changes, now it can generate Labyrinth Lord saves.

Saves for Zero Level

Poison, Disease, or Death: +6

Madness, Fear, or Charm: +5

Paralyze, Petrify, or Polymorph: +4

Dragon Breath or Energy Blast: +3

Spells, Artifacts, or Runes: +2

• Classes have a favored save that receives +3 at first level
• Classes get +5 every odd level to distribute into saves
• Fighters are the exception.  They get +6 every odd level.
• 20 - [category bonus] = target number

  
Class...... Favored save
 Fighter: Dragon Breath
Cleric: Poison
Thief: Petrify
Magic User: Spell


Class/Level.....OSRIC...............The New Hotness............Labyrinth Lord

Poison / Wand(Charm) / Petrify / Breath / Spell

Fighter

0.............16/18/17/20/19..............14/15/16/17/18..............14/15/16/17/18

1.............14/16/15/17/17..............12/14/15/14/16..............12/13/14/15/16

3.............13/15/14/16/16..............11/12/13/14/15..............12/13/14/15/16
5.............11/13/12/13/14..............10/11/11/13/14..............10/11/12/13/14
7.............10/12/11/12/13...............9 /10/10/11/13...............8 /9 /10/9 /12
9..............8 /10 /9 /9 /11.................8 /9 /9 /9 /12.................8 /9 /10/9 /12
11............7 /9 /8 /8 / 10..................7 /8 /8 /8 /10.................6 /7 /8 /7 /10
13.............5 /7 /6 /5 /8...................6 /7 /7 /7 / 8....................4 /5 /6 /5 /8
15.............4 /6 /5 /4 /7...................4 /5 /6 /6 / 8....................4 /5 /6 /5 /8
17.............3 /5 /4 /4 /6...................3 /4 /5 /4 / 7....................4 /4 /5 /4 /7
19+..........2 /4 /3 /3 /5....................2 /3 /4 /3 / 5....................3 /3 /4 /4 /6

Cleric
1...........10/14/13/16/15...............11/13/15/17/16...............11/12/14/16/15
3...........10/14/13/16/15...............11/12/13/16/15...............11/12/14/16/15
5............9 /13/12/15/14...............10/11/13/15/13...............9 /10/12/14/12
7............7 /11/10/13/12................9 /10/12/14/12................9 /10/12/14/12
9............7 /11/10/13/12................8 /10/11/13/10.................7 /8 /10/11/9
11..........6 /10/9 /12/11..................7 /9 /10/12/ 9..................7 /8 /10/11/9
13..........6 /10/9 /12/11..................6 /8 /9 /11/ 8...................3 /4 /8 /8 /6
15..........5 /9 /8 /11/10...................5 /7 /9 /9 / 7....................3 /4 /8 /8 /6
17..........4 /8 /7 /10/ 9...................4 /6 /8 /8 / 6....................2 /4 /6 /6 /5
19+........2/ 6/ 5 /8 / 7....................2 /5 /7 /7 / 6....................2 /4 /6 /6 /5

Thief
1...........13/14/12/16/15..............14/15/13/16/14................14/15/13/16/14
3...........13/14/12/16/15..............13/14/12/15/13................14/15/13/16/14
5...........12/12/11/15/13..............12/13/11/14/12................12/13/11/14/12
7...........12/12/11/15/13..............11/11/10/14/11................12/13/11/14/12
9...........11/10/10/14/11...............10/11/9 /12/10.................10/11/9 /12/10 
11.........11/10/10/14/11................9 /10/8 /11/ 9..................10/11/9 /12/10
13..........10/8 /9 /13/ 9.................8 /9 /7 /10/ 8....................8 /9 /7 /10/ 8
15..........10/8 /9 /13/ 9.................7 /8 /6 /9 / 7.....................8 /9 /7 /10/ 8
17...........9 /6 /8 /12/ 7.................6 /7 /5 /8 / 6.....................6 /7 /5 /8 / 6
19+........9 /6 /8 /12/ 7..................5 /6 /4 /7 / 5.....................6 /7 /5 /8 / 6

Magic User
1...........14/11/13/15/12..............14/14/14/16/14.................13/13/13/16/14
3...........14/11/13/15/12..............13/13/13/15/13.................13/13/13/16/14
5...........14/11/13/15/12..............13/11/11/15/12.................13/13/13/16/14
7...........13/9 /11/13/10...............11/10/10/14/12..................11/11/11/14/12
9...........13/9 /11/13/10................11/9 /9 /13/10...................11/11/11/14/12
11..........11/7 /9 /11/ 8...................9 /9 /9 /12/ 8.....................9 /9 /9 /12/ 8
13..........11/7 /9 /11/ 8..................9 /8 /7 /11/ 7.....................9 /9 /9 /12/ 8
15..........11/7 /9 /11/ 8..................8 /7 /6 /9 / 7......................9 /9 /9 /12/ 8
17.........10/5 /7 /9 / 6...................7 /5 /6 /8 / 6.......................7 /5 /6 /8 / 6
19+.......10/5 /7 /9 / 6...................7 /4 /5 /7 / 4...................... 6 /4 /5 /7 / 4


A few of the levels match up exactly with the LL saves, so I put those in bold.

None of the fighter levels match up exactly, but they are all rather close.  Some levels are only off by a single point (5,9,15,17).

Clerics are problematic.  I think perhaps they are supposed to receive a flat +1 on all saves because higher powers are watching out for them.

Thief saves line up nicely.

Magic User saves worked out better than I though they would.  Comparing an "every other level" tier with an "every fifth level" tier was bound to make it look funky.  I was surprised that 11th and 17th levels lined up exactly.

So, there you have it, a system to create LL saves.  Now when I make up new classes for Labyrinth Lord I can give them unique save tables.  Yeah, I could have just picked numbers that felt right, but it makes me feel better to have a system that balances the new saves with the existing matrix.

Save or Cry: save matrix design

I've been looking for a standardized method for creating a saving throw matrix.  Something that I can use to create a new class with a unique saving throw matrix that is comparable with saves in either OSRIC or Labyrinth Lord.

I couldn't find it, I don't think it exists. 

So I made it up myself.  Using this system I can create an old school style save matrix for any new class I create.  The saves will be fairly balanced between the classes, but still have plenty of quirks.  The results aren't quite in line with OSRIC or LL, but they're kinda close.  Here it is...

Saves for Zero Level

Poison, Disease, or Death: +6

Madness, Fear, or Charm: +5

Paralyze, Petrify, or Polymorph: +4

Dragon Breath or Energy Blast: +3

Spells, Artifacts, or Runes: +2

• Each class has a favored save category that goes up +1 each level
• Each class gets two other +1s each level to distribute into other categories
• No category can gain more than +1 per level

So, that's it.

When adding a new class all I need to do is assign it a favored category.  Then I can plot out where the bonuses go for each level, and convert it into a save matrix (20 - [category bonus] = target number) so that it looks like an old school save chart.

Or I could put the bonuses straight onto the character sheet.  Then to roll a save the PC just rolls a d20, adds the bonus, and a result of 20 or more equals success.

The results don't line up as neatly as I intended.  If I try to recreate the saves for Fighter/Cleric/Thief/M-U they don't turn out exactly right, but they are fairly close.  I'll stand these new matrices up next to the old familiar ones, so you can see for yourself.

Favored Category by Class

Fighters: Dragon Breath and Poison*

Clerics: Poison

Thief: Petrify

M-U: Spells

*Fighters get an additional favored category.  Improved saves are one of the few perks for the fighter class. 

Class/Level.....OSRIC...............The New Hotness............Labyrinth Lord

Poison / Wand(Charm) / Petrify / Breath / Spell

Fighter

0.............16/18/17/20/19..............14/15/16/17/18..............14/15/16/17/18

1.............14/16/15/17/17..............13/15/15/16/17..............12/13/14/15/16

3.............13/15/14/16/16..............11/13/14/14/16..............12/13/14/15/16
5.............11/13/12/13/14...............9 /12/13/12/14..............10/11/12/13/14
7.............10/12/11/12/13...............7 /11/12/10/12...............8 /9 /10/9 /12
9..............8 /10 /9 /9 /11................5 /9 /10 /8 /12................8 /9 /10/9 /12
11............7 /9 /8 /8 / 10..................3 /8 /9 /6 /10..................6 /7 /8 /7 /10
13.............5 /7 /6 /5 /8....................2 /7 /8 /4 / 8....................4 /5 /6 /5 /8
15.............4 /6 /5 /4 /7....................2 /6 /7 /2 / 6....................4 /5 /6 /5 /8
17.............3 /5 /4 /4 /6....................2 /4 /5 /2 / 6....................4 /4 /5 /4 /7
19+..........2 /4 /3 /3 /5....................2 /3 /4 /2 / 4....................3 /3 /4 /4 /6

Cleric
1...........10/14/13/16/15..................13/14/16/17/17...............11/12/14/16/15
3...........10/14/13/16/15..................11/14/15/16/15...............11/12/14/16/15
5............9 /13/12/15/14...................9 /13/14/15/14...............9 /10/12/14/12
7............7 /11/10/13/12...................7 /12/13/14/13...............9 /10/12/14/12
9............7 /11/10/13/12...................5 /11/12/13/12................7 /8 /10/11/9
11..........6 /10/9 /12/11....................3 /10/11/12/11................7 /8 /10/11/9
13..........6 /10/9 /12/11....................2 /9 /10/12/ 9...................3 /4 /8 /8 /6
15..........5 /9 /8 /11/10.....................2 /7 /10/11/8....................3 /4 /8 /8 /6
17..........4 /8 /7 /10/ 9......................2 /6 /9 /10/ 7.....................2 /4 /6 /6 /5
19+........2/ 6/ 5 /8 / 7.......................2 /6 /7 /8 / 7.....................2 /4 /6 /6 /5

Thief
1...........13/14/12/16/15....................14/15/15/16/17................14/15/13/16/14
3...........13/14/12/16/15....................13/14/13/16/15................14/15/13/16/14
5...........12/12/11/15/13....................13/13/11/15/13................12/13/11/14/12
7...........12/12/11/15/13....................12/12/9 /14/12.................12/13/11/14/12
9...........11/10/10/14/11....................11/11/7 /14/10.................10/11/9 /12/10 
11.........11/10/10/14/11....................10/10/5 /12/10.................10/11/9 /12/10
13..........10/8 /9 /13/ 9........................9 /9 /3 /11/ 9.....................8 /9 /7 /10/ 8
15..........10/8 /9 /13/ 9........................8 /8 /2 /10/ 8.....................8 /9 /7 /10/ 8
17...........9 /6 /8 /12/ 7........................6 /7 /2 /10/ 7.....................6 /7 /5 /8 / 6
19...........9 /6 /8 /12/ 7........................6 /6 /2 /8 / 6......................6 /7 /5 /8 / 6
21+........8 /4 /7 /11/ 5........................6 /6 /2 /8 / 6......................6 /7 /5 /8 / 6

Magic User
1...........14/11/13/15/12...................14/14/15/17/17..............13/13/13/16/14
3...........14/11/13/15/12...................13/13/14/16/15..............13/13/13/16/14
5...........14/11/13/15/12...................13/12/12/15/13..............13/13/13/16/14
7...........13/9 /11/13/10....................12/11/11/14/11..............11/11/11/14/12
9...........13/9 /11/13/10....................11/10/10/13/ 9...............11/11/11/14/12
11..........11/7 /9 /11/ 8......................10/9 /9 /12/ 7...................9 /9 /9 /12/ 8
13..........11/7 /9 /11/ 8.......................9 /8 /8 /11/ 5...................9 /9 /9 /12/ 8
15..........11/7 /9 /11/ 8.......................8 /7 /7 /10/ 3...................9 /9 /9 /12/ 8
17.........10/5 /7 /9 / 6.........................7 /6 /6 /9 / 2.....................7 /5 /6 /8 / 6
19.........10/5 /7 /9 / 6.........................6 /5 /5 /8 / 2..................... 6 /4 /5 /7 / 4 
21+........8 /3 /5 /7 / 4.........................6 /5 /5 /8 / 2..................... 6 /4 /5 /7 / 4



As you can see, the saves generated don't really match OSRIC or LL.  The favored categories improve too quickly.  Is that really a problem though?  Maybe it's a feature?

Honestly, letting each class excel in a single save category seems pretty cool to me.  I'm happy enough with the results to use them for my own games. I'm going to start writing up the races/classes for Ezzin now and use this system to give unique saves to each of them.

If anyone has an idea of how to rework the math so that the results line up better with the old school charts, I'd be grateful.  As always, any comments are welcome.

Saving Throws - the quandary

I've been thinking a lot about saving throws lately.

Combing the blogs to see what others have to say about saving throws has been enlightening.  There are a lot of interesting posts out there.  Mr. Stanham has a nice article on the subject over at Silver Blade Adventures.  Jeff Rients has some interesting observations about how the names of the save categories have evolved.  Then you have all the various charts, and graphs, and whatnot where people wiser than I are trying to see the truths that are hiding behind the numbers.  I still felt a little lost though.

I love having words like "Death Ray", "Petrify", and "Polymorph" on the character sheet.  I think it adds a sense of danger and helps to give new players a healthy dose of caution.  I'm not a big fan of the old school matrix though.  It seems kind of clunky and arbitrary to me.  I get the impression that the numbers in the original saving throw matrix weren't "planned out" so much as they just "felt right".  For one thing, there are a lot of different matrices depending on which edition/clone you decide to play.  They are all very similar, but everyone seems to try tweaking the numbers here or there for reasons I don't fully understand.  It seems as though designing the old school saving throw matrix was always treated more like an art than a science.

There are other options.  3e introduced Fortitude, Will, and Reflex saves. They do feel more even-handed and planned-out than the old style matrix, but I still don't like them.  I like my saves kept separate from my ability scores.  The character has already failed to protect themselves or to avoid trouble.  To me, rolling a saving throw represents the universe aligning to protect the character after they've fallen into harms way.  Lasers bouncing off jewelry, bullets getting lodged in bibles, that sort of thing.  Fort, Will, and Reflex saves just seem like Ability Checks modified by level, and that's not really what I want.   

I could use a single save system, like in Swords and Wizardry.  That's a pretty slick system.  I'll admit that it tempts me.  It feels a little too cookie cutter though, like there isn't enough distinction between the classes.  It also makes the character sheets less aesthetically appealing to my eye.  Maybe I'm being petty, but having cool looking character sheets is important to me. Still, of all the options I've seen this one is the easiest to customize, and that's a big plus for me.


So...  I've decided that I want something like the old matrix, with cool names and categories weighted for certain classes.  But I want it to feel less arbitrary and more equitable.  Also, it would be nice if it was customizable enough to accommodate new classes because eventually someone will roll up two 5s for their ability scores and I'll have to come up with saves for a talking dire squirrel or some other craziness.

I think I might know how to do it.
I'm going to crunch the numbers a little more, I'll post some details in the next few days.

Wish me luck.